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U.S. Muslims, Mormons forge unique bond
Interfaith
Written by SasyMomaCat   
Saturday, 12 April 2008 12:38

From the Arizona Daily Sun:
The Mormon Church has to be among the most outgoing on Earth; in recent years its leaders have reached out to, among others, Hispanics, Koreans, Catholics and Jews. One of the most enthusiastic responses, however, has come from what some might consider a surprising source: U.S. Muslims.
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laika  - Common Ground   |2008-04-12 14:11:08
Quote:
"A Mormon living in an Islamic society would be very comfortable," said Steve Young, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attending the event.


that makes perfect sense somehow, even beyond the polygamists tendencies and such.

Quote:
They tend toward patriarchy, believing in feminine modesty, chastity and virtue. And although Islam discourages dancing involving both sexes, Mormons report that church-sponsored "modesty proms" commonly draw Islamic youths.


that's sweet- two groups feeling alienated in the USA can come together to keep their womens in line.

great find, SMC! this is the most interesting thing i've read in a while.
metallurge  - Well...   |2008-04-12 14:13:22
Neither is trinitarian.
Both acknowledge the humanity of Jesus, but not the divinity of Jesus.
Both are "direct revelations" of God to an individual.
Both are later than and aware of (and in some sense dependent on) Christianity and Judaism, but neither has any direct relationship to orthodox Christianity or orthodox Judaism.
So, on some important theological axes, the LDS and Muslims do have some common ground.
JRB   |2008-04-12 15:41:48
Quote:
Both acknowledge the humanity of Jesus, but not the divinity of Jesus.


I thought the problem with LDS is that they do recognize the divinity of Jesus, but deny the "of one essence" and steer toward polytheism. Am I misinformed on this?
metallurge   |2008-04-12 16:03:58
My understanding is that the LDS views Jesus as the first example of theosis, the same sort of theosis available to us all. So, Jesus, in a LDS view, is exemplar. He, to the LDS, is most certainly not the preexistent Word in an orthodox Christian sense.

But I certainly could be wrong. This isn't something I have examined recently, and I might be misremembering.
JRB   |2008-04-12 16:12:46
I just did some quick digging around and it seems you're pretty much correct. My understanding was a bit off. Quite frankly the LDS appear even more disturbing to me after reading up on some of their doctrine.
emperorbma   |2008-04-12 18:12:18
Don't the LDS view God as sort of a council of consensus between Father, Son and Holy Ghost?
holmegm   |2008-04-14 07:01:38
that's sweet- two groups feeling alienated in the USA can come together to keep their womens in line.


Think we'll be raiding any New York apartment buildings soon?

Nah; me either.
bigbenaugust   |2008-04-14 12:10:11
Shoot, someone already made the polygamy joke-- in the first post. :(
holmegm   |2008-04-18 10:56:28
that's sweet- two groups feeling alienated in the USA can come together to keep their womens in line.

As usual, I find the vast differences in news coverage to be amazing ... the news outfits write about this in a tone they wouldn't dream of for some other, er, low profile religious group in the news a lot that dresses insufficiently revealingly.

Polygamy Garb Born of Rules

Quote:
But those familiar with the cult say the women's attire is not just a matter of tradition or preference. Rather, they say, fashions are dictated by very strict rules imposed and revised by sect elders to promote modesty and enforce religious devotion.

Controlling dress is a way of controlling behavior, experts say, and isolation from the outside world is precisely the point.

"They see the world as filled with the presence of Satan," Stephen Kent, a professor of sociology at the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada, who has studied polygamy, told ABC News. "The conservative dress of the women sets them apart from the outside world. It fosters among them the attitude that the outside world is sensual and bad."
laika  - re: Well...   |2008-04-12 16:04:38
thanks for developing that further than my initial leap to polygamy and the treatment of women. that article is goldmine of thought fodder.

now, if only Muslims could learn to peacefully co-exist with Caesar as the Mormons seem to have for the most part.
Jim   |2008-04-13 01:39:07
Well, part of the issue here is that Mormonism is the ultimate form of Americanism: if you work hard, keep your nose to the grindstone and live a good life, you too can be God!
Shenango   |2008-04-13 21:35:01
As a Muslim, my views on Mormonism and Mormons are very different.

Mormonism and Islam have very little in common theologically (that is, doctrine-wise), but they were formed under similar historical circumstances, as metallurge pointed out. This is why when anti-Muslim polemics try to label Islam as some sort of cheap, half-baked knock-off Judaism or Christianity I instead point them to Mormonism as much more likely what such a faith (which was born under similar circumstances) would look like, and invite them to re-examine Islam as the wholly different animal that it is. That might sound crude or harsh, but it suffices to say I see Mormonism as having major faleshoods I find use in touching on for intefaith discussion.

As for Mormons themselves, anybody who knows me knows the love, respect and admiration I have for these people far and above any other Christian or quasi-Christian sect. There are several reasons for this.

First and foremost, overall I find Mormon morality and family-oriented values (especially when it comes to sexuality and alcohol) superb and having much in common with Muslim morality. In my view, Catholics and mainline Protestant denominations lag far behind in terms of keeping their flocks living a moral, straight arrow lifestyle day-to-day. My disappointment goes way deeper than this, but I'll save any harsh words that might offend many here.

Secondly, I consider Mormons to have a spiritual depth to their character (called taqwa in Islam), a closeness to God if one wlls, near to that of Muslims, and unlike any other Americans period. This is a sort of elite spirituality that in my experience I've only otherwise seen exhibited by Orthodox Jews. It has to do with truly setting one's aspirations on the next life as the true life in every moment of this earthly life. It's a certain detachment from material things and happenings as not being worthy of the full attention our mind, body and soul 24/7. It's about not letting who wins or loses on Super Bowl Sunday affect one's happiness or sadness in the least. Mormons, of any large religious group other than Muslims, strike me as having the best balanced concern for this earthly, material life versus the next life (the heareafter).

Lastly what endears me to them is the fact that they stand up for their morality both as individuals and as a group in the face of the rest of the country, even if it alienates them as outcasts. As a Muslim who has shared experiences with fellow Muslims of being ostracized by supposedly Catholic, Protestant and Jewish peers for, among other things, not drinking and remaining chaste until marriage, this last point does not leave a light mark.

Christians beat up on them as heretics, but as long as the Mormons keep producing the kind of communities they do, they have an ally in this Muslim unto death.
metallurge  - re:   |2008-04-13 22:34:12
Shenango wrote:
Mormons [...] have a spiritual depth to their character (called taqwa in Islam), a closeness to God if one wlls, near to that of Muslims, and unlike any other Americans period. This is a sort of elite spirituality that in my experience I've only otherwise seen exhibited by Orthodox Jews. It has to do with truly setting one's aspirations on the next life as the true life in every moment of this earthly life. It's a certain detachment from material things and happenings as not being worthy of the full attention our mind, body and soul 24/7.
There are some American orthodox Christians who are like this. I do understand what you are saying, and agree it is virtuous. Some people's eyes are firmly fixed upon God, and it shows in all that they do. They exhibit a sort of behavior and wisdom that is beyond this world.

As the apostle Paul says, we see only through the glass darkly. But some very much seem to have keener vision than others. But such vision is all too rare, my friend, in Islam and in Christianity also.

Shenango wrote:
Lastly what endears me to them is the fact that they stand up for their morality both as individuals and as a group in the face of the rest of the country, even if it alienates them as outcasts. As a Muslim who has shared experiences with fellow Muslims of being ostracized by supposedly Catholic, Protestant and Jewish peers for, among other things, not drinking and remaining chaste until marriage, this last point does not leave a light mark.
Shenango, I was not aware that this has been your experience. See, when I was younger, I tried very hard to be morally upright, but it was entirely in my own strength. I was an outcast, but it had nothing to do with my faith, as I had none.

It shocks and saddens me that this has been your experience. Although I am not personally accountable for what has happened to you, I am sorry on behalf of those who claimed the name of Christ. Please at least understand that what has been done is not right in the eyes of God.

Shenango wrote:
Christians beat up on them as heretics, but as long as the Mormons keep producing the kind of communities they do, they have an ally in this Muslim unto death.
Well, they are certainly heretics from an orthodox Christian point of view. The charge of heresy is reserved for those who claim Christianity but who fall short of orthodoxy. So, for example, muslims are ineligible for such a charge. But I'm sure you know all that. The word heresy does in fact have a specific technical theological meaning besides the vernacular usage.
Shenango   |2008-04-14 12:12:28
Quote:
There are some American orthodox Christians who are like this.


You know, I was going to include some ancient groups of Mideast Christians among those mentioned, but I was working off an American context. I might include some Orthodox Christians in that group, but in the U.S. most of these people are immigrants or first generation Americans. I wouldn't count Anglo converts to Othodoxy among them unless they've been in the faith for years.

But whether you believe it's rare among Christians or not, I can't agree that it's rare among Muslims, as I find it to be pretty standard among us. Everybody has their own level of course; I didn't intend just to address the most sublime. I hope we aren't talking about different things.
WebbedFeetOfClay   |2008-04-13 23:05:24
i have a feeling that a lot of (though of course not all of) your experiences in this regard are pretty heavily influenced by social dynamic of minority v. majority culture. Adherents to a minority faith that are willing continue to actively identify as such and hesitate to assimilate, often tend to be much more shining exemplars of the values they profess, Majority status can breed a fair amount of moral sloth and laziness. I think you're geography would play a big role in your experiences (though I should say I know some solid positive and negative exceptions to any of these general trends)
emperorbma   |2008-04-14 01:20:55
I concur with metallurge, it is regrettable and upsetting that this has been your experience with Christians.

On the issues of sexual morality, we are more than likely concurred on almost all points. The "sex outside of marriage" culture is an abysmal fruit of American culture which we Christians are not as vocal as we could be in criticizing. Even so, most of the Christians right of the mainline as well as the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches do make unequivocal statements that sex outside of marriage is sinful. What the laity does with those teachings, unfortunately, varies from person to person.

As for alcohol, for Muslims it is probably explicitly spelled out in the Qu'ran that alcohol is forbidden. It is probably important to note that we Christians do not have a Scriptural teaching which explicitly forbids drinking alcohol and only a few Christians such as Baptists interpret it to say that.

Considering that many Christians believe that our Lord specifically commanded us to use wine in the Lord's Supper and that Paul exhorts the congregations to "drink a little wine," it is clear it isn't exactly forbidden. Drunkenness, however, is forbidden.

Certainly, those who wronged you are quite wrong to have imposed on your conscience in the manner in which they did. In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul describes a situation where the abuse of one's freedoms is a stumbling block to a fellow Christian and since we must also "love our neighbor as ourselves," we should not be carelessly trampling on the consciences of non-Christians either.

I would say if all were right in that they would indeed keep the freedom in Christ for drinking alcohol, but not maliciously tempt a Muslim to join.
laika  - re:   |2008-04-13 22:44:29
Jim wrote:
Well, part of the issue here is that Mormonism is the ultimate form of Americanism: if you work hard, keep your nose to the grindstone and live a good life, you too can be God!


good observation. they are very much an American religion.
holmegm   |2008-04-14 05:52:45
Quote:
Well, part of the issue here is that Mormonism is the ultimate form of Americanism: if you work hard, keep your nose to the grindstone and live a good life, you too can be God!


Actually, that sounds pretty much like any Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism, when you get down to it. Not just the American variety. (Granted, we're very good at it ;) )

Mormonism is just explicit about the "you can be god" part.
Jim   |2008-04-14 11:20:03
Good point. Though I tend to shy away from the term "semi-Pelagian" since the PCA tends to use that of everyone who doesn't think like they do.
laika  - re:   |2008-04-13 23:01:27
Shenango wrote:
Secondly, I consider Mormons to have a spiritual depth to their character (called taqwa in Islam), a closeness to God if one wlls, near to that of Muslims, and unlike any other Americans period. This is a sort of elite spirituality that in my experience I've only otherwise seen exhibited by Orthodox Jews. It has to do with truly setting one's aspirations on the next life as the true life in every moment of this earthly life. It's a certain detachment from material things and happenings as not being worthy of the full attention our mind, body and soul 24/7. It's about not letting who wins or loses on Super Bowl Sunday affect one's happiness or sadness in the least. Mormons, of any large religious group other than Muslims, strike me as having the best balanced concern for this earthly, material life versus the next life (the heareafter).


for all your admiration, you recognize them for the bogus homebrew American religion that they are. according to your tradition, what will be the fate in the next life of such as these who successfully avoid alcohol, sex and professional sports in this life but don't follow Islam? will their deep spiritually avail them in the next life if they failed to recognize the One True God and His Prophet in this one?
Shenango  - re:   |2008-04-14 12:37:58
laika wrote:
according to your tradition, what will be the fate in the next life of such as these who successfully avoid alcohol, sex and professional sports in this life but don't follow Islam? will their deep spiritually avail them in the next life if they failed to recognize the One True God and His Prophet in this one?


It all depends on whether they were informed about and had the opportunity to embrace Islam or not. People who were ignorant of Islam will be judged according to what they knew. But nobody who dies in conscious rejection of Islam as their way of life in full knowledge of it can escape Hell per Qur'an 3:85.

In general though, regardless of one's religion or what they knew or didn't know, in Islam nobody who dies in conscious rejection of God's absolute oneness can be forgiven as ascribing partners to God's oneness is the only unforgiveable sin.

In the Muslim view Mormon doctrine is most certainly guilty of violating God's oneness and associating partners with it, but the Mormons themselves deny they are polytheists. So let God be the judge.
holmegm   |2008-04-14 12:47:49
People who were ignorant of Islam will be judged according to what they knew. But nobody who dies in conscious rejection of Islam as their way of life in full knowledge of it can escape Hell per Qur'an 3:85.

Interesting!

So, in this respect, Islam itself is the "Jesus" of Islam.
Shenango   |2008-04-14 12:50:40
Well...they do say that the most apt comparison to Jesus (PBUH) in Christianity for Islam is the Qur'an, not Muhammad (PBUH)...and it is the Qur'an that says this. Go figure...
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