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Muslim Episcopal Priest Defrocked
Interfaith
Written by laika   
Wednesday, 01 April 2009 23:09

At The Seattle Times:

The Episcopal Church has defrocked Ann Holmes Redding, the Seattle Episcopal priest who announced in 2007 that she is both Christian and Muslim.

Bishop Geralyn Wolf of Rhode Island, who has disciplinary authority over Redding, informed the priest of her decision in a letter today.

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bigbenaugust   |2009-04-02 12:23:41
So there is some sanity still out there. Whew!
Shenango   |2009-04-02 23:41:49
I saw a blurb about this this morning on CNN's scrolling news ticker, and thought "I wonder if theophiles will post this".

I just wonder how they allowed her to go on for two years before making that move.
laika   |2009-04-03 09:49:57
Shenango wrote:
"I wonder if theophiles will post this".


thanks for thinking of us. nice to see you.
WebbedFeetOfClay   |2009-04-03 14:44:23
not sure if you remember following her story back then (may have been Christdot at the time,) She was suspended from priestly function (and teaching facilities) pretty early after she made her announcement ( a week or two) and was given time to reconsider, time ran out she still affirmed it, and thereby was kicked out.
PerpetualAgnostic  - I just don't get it   |2009-04-03 01:02:04
How on earth would she see the two religions as compatible?

The core of Christian doctrine is that Jesus is God, and a core Muslim belief is that Jesus is just a man.

Am I missing something? Is there some nuanced understanding or argument that lets some people rationally get around this problem?
wezlo  - I dunno   |2009-04-03 10:16:55
When I first heard this one my brain kinda melted.
PerpetualAgnostic   |2009-04-03 11:41:18
Well, she spoke about how the character of Muslims strongly impressed her, and how she was deeply moved by their prayers and other practices (iirc).

So I wonder if she has an implicit belief that (a) the character of a religion's adherents is indicative of the religion's truthiness (thanks, Colbert), and/or (b) feeling deeply moved by a religious practice is a pointer to something supernatural behind it.

It seems to me that many Christians make the (a)-style argument ("Jesus changes lives"), and most Mormons make the (b)-style argument ("burning in the bossom").

One might argue that none of that should override the clear logical contradiction between Islam's and Christianity's claims, but she might counter that we're imperfect in our practice of logic, and therefore it shouldn't always have unquestioned veto power over other beliefs.

So if my guess about her epistemology is correct, wouldn't that make her epistemology quite mainstream, even if that leads to some surprising beliefs?
emperorbma   |2009-04-03 14:05:12
Quote:
So if my guess about her epistemology is correct, wouldn't that make her epistemology quite mainstream, even if that leads to some surprising beliefs?


It's an interesting observation.

The problem is, even if the epistemology seems sound, if it really was taken in such a direction the conclusion conflicts with another core principle of the Christian faith:
Quote:
The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.(2 Timothy 2:11-13)


In essence, if God can simultaneously deny Himself and also proclaim Himself, it sort of conflicts with this statement and undermines a the key witness of the Gospel. Her claim would seem to be implying that God is an inconsistent and unfaithful and stands in stark contradiction to the Gospel's necessary certainty regarding the forgiveness of sins in Christ.

Consequently, it isn't just the logical contradiction at play here.  Otherwise, I'd agree with your assessment entirely.
wezlo   |2009-04-04 15:00:14
Quote:
So if my guess about her epistemology is correct, wouldn't that make her epistemology quite mainstream, even if that leads to some surprising beliefs?


You're guess is probably correct - but at the same time I'd expect someone who's officiating over sacraments would recognize the class and have the class to say, "You know, I think I'm being a little dishonest here."
holmegm  - re: I just don't get it   |2009-04-03 12:24:42
PerpetualAgnostic wrote:
How on earth would she see the two religions as compatible?

The core of Christian doctrine is that Jesus is God, and a core Muslim belief is that Jesus is just a man.

Am I missing something?  Is there some nuanced understanding or argument that lets some people rationally get around this problem?


I think there are many people who think we "shouldn't divide over doctrine", "what matters most is how you live and care for the poor", etc. who would have no logical problem with this at all (though they would probably have a visceral discomfort and sense that they should have a problem with it).
PerpetualAgnostic  - re: re: I just don't get it   |2009-04-03 13:34:34
holmegm wrote:
I think there are many people who think we "shouldn't divide over doctrine", "what matters most is how you live and care for the poor", etc. who would have no logical problem with this at all (though they would probably have a visceral discomfort and sense that they should have a problem with it).


So is there an implicit [meta]theology that we can tease out of such a view?

Maybe something like:
1. Exceptionally good behavior must indicate that a person is being guided by God.  

2. Also, if God would cause a person to behave exceptionally well, then God would presumably have also corrected that person's major religious beliefs if they were wrong in any important way.

3. Therefore, anyone who acts in an an exceptionally Godly way must have a true religion.

4. Therefore, if both a Christian and a Mulsim act in exceptionally Godly ways, both religions must be essentially true.

5. If (4) appears to contradict our doctrines, then it must be our doctrines or our reasoning about them that's false.
emperorbma   |2009-04-03 19:35:29
Hypothetically, if these were her arguments, I would have much to criticize on them. The thing of the matter is, we do know that God's inspired Word is true. What does the Word say on this matter and how do we read it?

From what I see in Scripture, we can criticize points 2 and 3 on the basis that not all things that the world construes as "faith" are considered faith by God.  It is most certainly true that doing good indicates some form of Divine grace at work, but it does not necessarily indicate that someone is faithful to God. Even atheists who vehemently criticize God and all who believe in Him can be noted as doing benevolent and charitable works.  So, in her hypothetical estimation, should we construe these also as Christians? Likewise, are not pagans very pious and yet (from the testimony of Scripture itself on the matter) the Lord considers them as faithless and hostile to His truth. As I said, not all that seems faithful necessarily is considered a true faith before God. Likewise, a protestation of one's own faithfulness can even be construed in certain cases as an attempt to justify oneself before God through works or merits, which (particularly with Protestants) is not considered right.

Furthermore, I would note that although human reason is indeed fallible (and corrupted by sin, even), it isn't entirely stupid. As Christians we, to some extent or other, believe the Scripture is a crucial part of representing God's plan of salvation to the world and that it was revealed by Himself through the Holy Spirit and carries in it His inspired Word. On that basis, we can note that what Scripture itself teaches should not be considered merely a human presumption. On that ground, it is written that salvation is a gift of God through faith in Jesus Christ as His only-begotten Son. If someone, then, considers an Islamic interpretation equally valid to the Christian one, they are calling the very words of Christ Himself into question. How, in any way, can such an act be honestly construed as Christian if it calls the very Christ for which it is named a liar?
bigbenaugust  - re: I just don't get it   |2009-04-06 10:22:12
PerpetualAgnostic wrote:
How on earth would she see the two religions as compatible?


Drugs?
JRB   |2009-04-06 13:07:45
That was my guess too. With enough acid, anything is possible.
emperorbma   |2009-04-06 13:13:40
Maybe it was that Peyote that some religion is trying to get legalized for itself.
Shenango  - re:   |2009-04-11 23:29:52
PerpetualAgnostic wrote:
Well, she spoke about how the character of Muslims strongly impressed her, and how she was deeply moved by their prayers and other practices (iirc).

So I wonder if she has an implicit belief that (a) the character of a religion's adherents is indicative of the religion's truthiness (thanks, Colbert),


If you're hinting, PA, that the character of a faith's adherents is independent of that faith's truth value I'd completely agree. Logically speaking, of course they're two separate things. 

But in the case of Islam peculiarly I just wonder if she might be on to something if only for the fact that the Qur'an states that its faith and its adherents would become distiguished in the eyes of people above the other competing faiths of the world (which, when you think about it, was a pretty bold statement at the time it was made).

Personally, I find her sentiments about the spiritual depth of Muslims in general, which I've heard echoed by others, including Christians and Unitarian Universalists, have a ring of truth on an esoteric realm, if not in the logical one.
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Last Updated on Wednesday, 01 April 2009 23:24
 

Our valuable member laika has been with us since Thursday, 03 April 2008.

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