theophiles.org - Couple Ordered by County to Stop Holding Bible Study in Home

Couple Ordered by County to Stop Holding Bible Study in Home

Written by SasyMomaCat

Thursday, 28 May 2009 15:32

From Fox News:

Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been told that they cannot invite friends to their San Diego, Calif. home for a bible study — unless they are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to San Diego County.

Comments

OrionBlastar - Yet another way to stop religion in private

|2009-05-28 17:14:22

you cannot even study your bible in home with others without paying a huge fine.

docbob - So much not said in this article

|2009-05-28 17:27:11

How many people had assembled at this home?

He is a pastor but it did not say of what church.

Did neighbors complain about parking in the neighborhood?

How regularly did these Bible Studies meet?

Usually Fox news is better than this in their stories, I think they dropped the ball this time.

laika

|2009-05-28 23:00:46

docbob wrote:

How many people had assembled at this home?

that is most likely the relevant question.

i've witnessed a situation where a regular gathering in someone's home became a weekly traffic problem because of the number of parked cars, foot traffic, and the kind of street/terrain involved. the time and place of the meeting actually was an accident waiting to happen.

SasyMomaCat - More details

|2009-05-29 09:26:51

Apparently, they have been meeting on a weekly basis for the past five years and approximately 15 people are involved. Parking is one of the issues cited by the county.

Other information I was able to locate includes that one of the bible study participants backed into the care of a guest for another neighborhood resident and the guest complained to the county about the gathering.

Also, apparently, the zoning ordinance only applies because of the presence of "religious activity." The county official quizzed the couple regarding whether or not they prayed, sang, and said "amen." A weekly gathering to play cards or watch football would be allowable, according to one source.

As someone that deals with zoning ordinances routinely at work, I have to say this is about par for the course. If the neighbor's guest hadn't brought it to the county's attention, they would have probably been able to go along indefinitely. However, depending on the county zoning ordinance, now that it has been brought up, the county has to abide by its own codified rules.

SasyMomaCat

|2009-05-29 09:27:24

backed into the CAR, not care ... oops

SasyMomaCat - San Diego County Zoning Ordinance

|2009-05-29 09:38:14

A closer look at the ordinance shows that it defines a church as "An institution which people regularly attend to participate in or hold religious services, meetings and other activities."

PineHall

|2009-05-29 10:27:09

Thanks for the extra details. It is on the large size for a home Bible study but it is not that large. The county needs to make it clear if all home Bible studies violate the zoning ordinances, or if this is a special case dealing with parking. Things need to be clarified, and hopefully the county and neighbors and the couple can resolve this without litigation.

(Large gatherings for watching football have licensing issues, I believe.)

grizzly

|2009-05-29 15:25:53

Could you share the links where you found that additional information?

SasyMomaCat - hunting now ...

|2009-05-29 18:15:30

I'll have to hunt them down, but I'll gladly do so ... give me a bit and I'll be back ...

SasyMomaCat - bits and pieces

|2009-05-29 18:44:19

I had to hunt for information on this last night and was posting from memory this morning. (after finding the info I posted earlier, I realized why it wasn't hitting bigger for large news outlets - it's really a non-story)

One of the sources I used was ahttp://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html local news station.

I am having trouble finding the source (a Canadian newspaper) that mentioned the guest of a neighbor being the one who filed the complaint.

The definition of church was directly from the zoning ordinance, found here http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/index.html. You can also see at this site where many zones (particularly residential zones) do require permits for religious assembly activity.

One of the criteria for this is a regular meeting. If they meet on a weekly basis and have been doing so for five years, that seems like a regular meeting to me.

If someone's activities are blocking the street on a weekly basis, it can become a public safety issue. Fire trucks, ambulances, and other emergency responders could have difficulty getting down a street stacked with cars attending an event. If it is only sporadic and periodic, it's less likely to be a problem. But if done on a weekly basis, the likelihood of this scenario becomes greater.

Hey, I'm very much in favor of home Bible studies and I'm pretty libertarian in my views, but as the saying goes, "your rights end where my nose begins." I live on a cul-de-sac and one set of former neighbors routinely had larger groups in their home than their property could accommodate, as far as parking goes. It was a nightmare getting in and out of the neighborhood. I can sympathize with any aggravated neighbor.

laika

|2009-05-29 20:14:49

SasyMomaCat wrote:

Hey, I'm very much in favor of home Bible studies and I'm pretty libertarian in my views, but as the saying goes, "your rights end where my nose begins." I live on a cul-de-sac and one set of former neighbors routinely had larger groups in their home than their property could accommodate, as far as parking goes. It was a nightmare getting in and out of the neighborhood. I can sympathize with any aggravated neighbor.

sensibly said!

as i mentioned elsewhere, i know first-hand of a weekly meeting that became a quite a pain for the neighborhood and a public safety issue. these situations aren't uncommon, and i'll bet this story is not one of big, bad, intrusive Ceasar persecuting the Christians as Fox presents it.

metallurge

|2009-06-01 00:28:52

I think part of the problem here is lack of clarity. Is this about parking, or is it about zoning? If the former, then there are already laws about where and when people can park, designed to protect against unsafe parking practices. Why is this not simply matter of enforcing those laws?

But it isn't really about parking. Or noise. The person who came knocking on the door was from code compliance. That's zoning, not parking. And that is a whole different animal.

If it's zoning, and it's a reasonable-sized home-based Bible study, this ought to be of concern to all of us.

OrionBlastar - re: So much not said in this article

|2009-05-28 22:30:52

docbob wrote:

Come on people have block parties that have parking fill up the street and loud noises.

Bible Studies are usually not as loud as block parties.

Jim	\|2009-05-29 10:03:52

At least in my area, there are forms that have to be filled out and registered in order to have block parties.

Jim - A More Fair and Balanced Report

|2009-05-29 10:12:09

I have problems trusting Faux News. This article from a local station seems to be a bit more fair and balanced:

Quote:

Pastor Fights County Over Permit For Home Bible...

A local pastor is outraged because he says the county wants to shut down his Bible study group, but the county says he has it all wrong.

Thursday, for the first time, a San Diego County official sat down with 10News, to respond to the allegations.

The story of Pastor David Jones' claims against the county has grabbed national attention.

The county official said Jones has got it all wrong and tried to explain the curious line of questioning the county had for the Pastor....

Every Tuesday night about 15 people drive to Jones’ Bonita home to eat dinner and discuss the Bible. They usually park on Jones' property, he said but sometimes, that parking spills out into the cul-de-sac.

Last month, someone filed a complaint about the number of cars....

“We want to make sure whether they're on a public road or a private road that they're parking safely, that we can get fire trucks in, that we can get police vehicles in,” Waller said.

The article doesn't mention anyone's car getting hit, but it is clear that traffic and safety were concerns. (Not to mention fifteen cars? Come on folks! Car pool!)

holmegm

|2009-05-29 11:12:49

How did Jones "get it all wrong"? Does he not need a major permit? Did they not ask the religious questions?

Sounds to me like each news story focused more on one party's viewpoint. They just did so with different parties.

Jim	\|2009-05-29 13:57:23

RTFA

Entity

|2009-05-29 14:57:38

Starbucks out of Iced Quad Venti with Whip Skinny Caramel Macchiatos this morning?

WebbedFeetOfClay

|2009-05-29 16:29:06

that would be a hard thing to be out of....very basic ingredients....somebody has to have really screwed up to be out of Iced Quad Venti Skinny Caramel Macchiatos with whip.

CoffeeZombie

|2009-05-29 16:42:53

I think perhaps what Entity really meant was,

"Who pissed in your Iced Quad Venti with Whip Skinny Caramel Macchiato this morning?"

PerpetualAgnostic - re:

|2009-05-29 21:57:54

Jim wrote:

RTFA

I for one welcome our new potty-mouthed overlords.

WebbedFeetOfClay - eww

|2009-05-29 22:10:13

CoffeeZombie wrote:

"Who pissed in your Iced Quad Venti with Whip Skinny Caramel Macchiato this morning?"

think you're reading this a bit too literally.

Entity

|2009-05-30 08:08:23

Nope. He got the gist just right.

holmegm

|2009-05-29 22:23:06

Jim wrote:

RTFA

The fine article consists mostly of some waffling and justifying from the "county official". It tries to convey the impression that Jones was wildly overreacting, without actually establishing that he was doing so.

The closest it comes is that the county "sounds like the county is backing away from their original warning", which means they were where Jones said they were in the first place (if they need to back away).

metallurge

|2009-05-30 09:54:06

This is one of those issues that just gets under my skin. If the real issue is parking and safety, then freaking change the parking laws to what you think they should be and freaking ticket the illegally parked cars! If the real issue is noise, then freaking issue noise citations. This ought to be a cut-and-dried issue of law. Sounds to me like this is starting out as an issue of I-don't-like-this and the law is merely being used as an easily-grasped bludgeoning tool.

Bottom line, just because your neighbor is doing something you don't like, does not give you the right to effectively complain. And the rules for stuff like parking ought to apply equally and fairly to all, not just church gatherings. If it is a public street, and it is legal to park on the public street, I do not see the legitimate issue here. And even if there were an issue, it can rightly only be with individual drivers of individual cars. How is it the case that the homeowner is somehow accountable?

If, let's say, everyone walked to these Bible Studies, I suspect there would be those who would still oppose the meetings. First of all, that's total crap in an allegedly free society. Second, it scares me that people are taking complaints about things like this seriously. If we are not willing to stand up for the right to assemble, our society is totally down the toilet.

laika

|2009-05-30 14:13:28

metallurge wrote:

This is one of those issues that just gets under my skin.

and i'd bet that it would get under your skin real quick after you had to park a couple of blocks away from your house because of all the cars. do that on a weekly basis and let us know how you feel :-)

this is a zoning issue, not a liberty issue. to regularly snarl up suburbia is not neighborly. in the situation that i witnessed, the homeowner who held the meetings had the decency to realize that he was causing a problem and the meeting was simply moved elsewhere.

if we can't be thoughtful neighbors, "our society is totally down the toilet."

Entity

|2009-05-30 23:34:12

I know many Cub Scout den meetings are held at people's homes and result in many cars there once a week. I have never heard of them being hit with zoning infractions. If it is applied solely because it is a religious meeting, that is a liberty issue.

metallurge - re:

|2009-05-31 21:55:58

laika wrote:

Firstly, I have lived in such places, Pittsburgh for example. Heck, when I visited master giziti, I wondered if I would ever find a place to park. It's part of urban life in older cities as far as I can tell. There are rules to the parking game. Something about getting there first? ;-)

laika wrote:

this is a zoning issue, not a liberty issue. to regularly snarl up suburbia is not neighborly. in the situation that i witnessed, the homeowner who held the meetings had the decency to realize that he was causing a problem and the meeting was simply moved elsewhere.

if we can't be thoughtful neighbors, "our society is totally down the toilet."

While I agree with you about being thoughtful neighbors, this is not something that can or should be legislated. Not everyone perceives thoughtfulness or neighborliness the same way.

Zoning issues are fundamentally liberty issues. Do you, the landowner, have the right to use the property you own however you see fit? If there is going to be an error in this balance, I will always favor the landowner.

SasyMomaCat - zoning is aggravating

|2009-05-30 15:52:29

I'll be the first to admit that zoning ordinances can get really aggravating. Some are more reasonable than others.

Bear in mind, the ordinance here requires major use permits for other types of "civic use types." Basically, things they believe, due to the nature of the traffic and/or other circumstances that come with them, are not compatible with residential zones and therefore have to be looked at on an individual basis through a permit process. Some of the other "civic use types" that require major use permits include administrative services; child care center; clinic services; community recreation; cultural exhibits; library services; group care; lodge, fraternal, and civic assembly; major impact services and utilities; parking services; and postal services. So, it's not like religious assembly is the only thing on the list that fits under "civic" activities.

SasyMomaCat - your rights vs my rights

|2009-06-01 09:51:40

Just my 2c worth, here - I don't think there would have been any complaints about the Bible study if it had not created an environment in the neighborhood that other residents viewed as infringing on their "rights of peaceful enjoyment" of their own property.

As I listed in detail on one of my posts up-thread, there are several other "civic" activities that fall into this same ordinance for the same reasons (and I didn't even begin to look at the other activities listed that didn't fall into the civic category.) As a residential area, to preserve the right to peaceful enjoyment, certain activities require additional scrutiny. Since a formal complaint was lodged, the county is bound by it's own ordinance - it has, really, very little choice but to abide by it's own pre-established law.

I really don't think this has anything at all to do with the actual purpose of the gathering, but rather its impact on the other people in the neighborhood.

That said, I would venture to guess that an amicable solution could have been reached if the neighbors had simply approached the couple hosting the Bible study and expressed that parking was becoming a problem and that they would like to find a solution. Of course, I could be wrong - there are unreasonable people in every walk of life.

In general, I'm not particularly fond of zoning as a principal. If a neighborhood chooses to restrict certain activities, it's all well and good because it would be the choice of the people. But when an city planner or zoning administrator does it, I think it oversteps the rights of the people. But personal opinion aside, when it is part of the law of the land and does not require a body to go contrary to God's law or prevent us from doing what God has commanded, then we are bound to abide by it.

There are still some places that do not have zoning, Houston being the largest in the nation. But, for the most part, zoning is an accepted part of most municipalities.

Again, it's just my 2c worth.

laika

|2009-06-01 10:11:37

SMC wrote:

i'm afraid your two cents aren't gonna buy much among those bound and determined to see themselves as being persecuted by an oppressive government, SMC.

SasyMomaCat

|2009-06-01 10:24:58

2c doesn't go as far as it used to, eh? LOL

PinocchiosFurniture - Strictly a Zoning Issue

|2009-05-31 19:50:05

Sounds strictly like a zoning and use issue to me.

The average person simply does not understand that uses of one's private home are regulated by zoning ordinances.

For example, if you one lives in what is typically an R-1 zone, only single family dwellings can be constructed and no home based 'businesses' are allowed.

Excluded can be home beauty shops, dentist offices, CPA offices, medical offices, and other types of 'businesses' that require customers to come to one's house for goods or services.

The purpose is to make sure that R-1 neighborhoods are kept quiet and uncongested for family living.

There are exceptional uses in R-1 zones...such as Churches...but these uses need to be approved because of the many reasons already stated: parking, noise, etc...

The City of San Diego is not telling these people that they cannot use their house a a place of religious worship or assembly.

The City of San Diego is telling the pastor that there are RULES and PROCEDURES which need to be followed in order gain PERMISSION to use his residence in a manner that does not conform to the zoning regulations.

This is common and this is normal and this applies to EVERYONE.

It appears the pastor does not understand this and it trying to make a Federal Discrimination case where none exists.

All the pastor needs to do is to obtain the proper permits, zoning variances and approvals, and he will be able to legally use his property in the manner he sees fit.

If he doesn't want to follow the law, then he can find somewhere else to meet where.

PS: If the house was being used by a bunch of Hari Krishnas, the first ones calling the authorities would be people like this pastor.

And guess what? The Hari Krishnas would have to jump the same municipal hoops.

Sorry.

Another wacko 'pastor' crying 'persecution' when the real issue is that he simply wants to be above the law....

metallurge

|2009-05-31 21:38:32

Yes, well, I regard zoning regulations with the same jaundiced eye I regard neighborhood associations. When zoning regulations start getting into stopping ordinary uses of one's home, like Bible studies, there are first amendment (assembly & religion) issues. 15 people is well withing "ordinary" residential use as far as I am concerned. As was said, think about Cub Scouts, or even birthday parties, or soccer practice, or grilling out with a larger family. As far as I am concerned, no zoning law has any legitimate purpose in restricting such things. And again, if there are genuine parking/noise issues, that's what those ordinances are for. Getting at it indirectly through zoning is a cop-out as far as I am concerned, an unwarranted dragnet.

Lastly (and this is what really gripes me the most), zoning regulations seem to presume the right of regulation. As far as I am concerned, in a free society, the burden ought to be on the government to justify itself, not on the citizenry to justify itself. So-called rights like assembly are not granted by governments, but preexist governments.

I might just have been living in Texas too long... ;-)

The accusation about "above the law" is nonsense. Not all laws are legitimate or just. Just because a law allegedly applies equally to everyone does not make it inherently just.

On a fundamental, Constitutional basis (as well as a religious liberty basis), I think that any government regulation of how churches use their property is very dangerous, period. And government regulation of how individuals use their property for religious purposes is equally dangerous. Both should be vigorously opposed purely on principle.

SasyMomaCat - sad, but true

|2009-06-01 09:57:55

metallurge said

Quote:

Not all laws are legitimate or just. Just because a law allegedly applies equally to everyone does not make it inherently just.

Unfortunately, the justness of a law is not our guide, as Christians, determining whether or not we should abide by it. The measure of that is whether or not it goes contrary to God's law or commands.

As to the unjustness of laws, we should certainly take appropriate action to combat anything we view as unjust. But, as Christians, that does not mean disregarding the law.

emperorbma

|2009-06-01 13:59:37

Quote:

But, as Christians, that does not mean disregarding the law.

Or, at the very least, being willing to bear the consequences of choosing to disregard it if we did. After all, I wouldn't say Civil Disobedience is contrary to the principles of faith, but it must always be done with the conviction that the government is acting as an imperfect and limited representative of God's own justice. As a result, total disobedience is never justified and Civil Disobedience must always be prepared to suffer injustice for the sake of the truth while never doling out injustice of its own.

PinocchiosFurniture - Zoning Laws Benefit Everyone

|2009-05-31 23:03:50

Zoning laws are common and normal, not intrusive, and are designed to benefit EVERYONE and protect ALL our rights.

That is why they can also be APPEALED in special instances and why legal DUE PROCESS is established to apply for VARIANCES.

But there is a legal PROCESS.

What Mettalurge and apparantly this pastor espouse is anarachy.

The pastor has the right to apply for a variance and appeal any decision by the Zoning Officials.

If he chooses not to, that is his own fault, not the Zoning Board, San Diego County, or Government in General.

The Law applies even to Christians and the Scriptures demand from us that we abide by the Law.

Many Christians, however, forget that and instead are in rebellion against God by failing to follow His authority through the men Has has raised into office and through the Governments He has established for those pruposes.

This pastor just doesn't want to obey men or God it seems.

That is to his own embarrassment, and potentially to his own unfortunate damnation.

If one cannot follow man's laws, he certainly cannot follow God's laws, and in this particular case, this pastor appears to poised to show himself disqualified from ministerial service if he rejects the laws of San Diego County God put in place to for even him.

Sorry.

metallurge - re: Zoning Laws Benefit Everyone

|2009-06-01 00:04:23

I just don't even begin to know how to respond to this. Are you reading what I am writing?

laika

|2009-06-01 00:14:23

metallurge wrote:

Are you reading what I am writing?

i'll bite!

i'm hearing you to say that because you have some pre-existent right to be inconsiderate on a regular basis, you should exercise that right ;-)

live rude, or die!

metallurge

|2009-06-01 00:48:11

I'm trying to figure out how a home Bible study (apart from potentially illegal parking and/or noise, which I have already stipulated are fair game for ordinary enforcement) is being inconsiderate. If it is legal to park on the street, is it inconsiderate to do so? Not where I am from. That street is public property, and I have just as much right to use it as you, the dude whose house I am parking in front of. That's not rude, that's the way things are.

It is surely not inconsiderate to have people inside my home studying the Bible. So where is the issue?

laika

|2009-06-01 01:31:56

metallurge wrote:

That street is public property, and I have just as much right to use it as you, the dude whose house I am parking in front of. That's not rude, that's the way things are.

i guess i'm just fortunate in that in my neighborhood we consider that street parking goes with the house. do i covet my neighbor's awesome all day shady spot? do i have a right to it? sure, but i don't park there. it's "his" spot.

of course people have the occasional party, but it would be considered a grave rudeness to jam up the parking regularly. as false as it may seem to some people, there is still a fairly strong appreciation for the small courtesies in the South.

a recent situation in a nearby neighborhood was a genuine danger because of the terrain, but it was also a traffic clusterf... um, clusterthingy. blind hill, very narrow and curvy road...

CoffeeZombie

|2009-06-01 09:40:57

I'd like to add to the list of things that are apparently allowed to inconvenience me, neighborhood pool events. My parents' neighborhood had a swim team, and during the summer they would have regular meets. It tied up traffic something awful.

Anyway, I, for one, totally agree with you, metallurge.

laika

|2009-06-01 10:08:51

CoffeeZombie wrote:

I'd like to add to the list of things that are apparently allowed to inconvenience me, neighborhood pool events.

yeah, as kid, i was lucky enough to be within easy walking distance of a pool that regularly held swim meets and such. they were zoned for it and had more than ample parking. i played baseball at the adjoining fields; again, more than enough parking and zoned for it. all designed to acommodate the traffic spikes. and the neighbors next to the ballpark and pool knew what the recreational area would be used for when they purchased their properties. it was great - some of the happiest times of my life were spent there.

laika

|2009-06-01 00:20:24

PF wrote:

Many Christians, however, forget that and instead are in rebellion against God by failing to follow His authority through the men Has has raised into office and through the Governments He has established for those pruposes.

actually, that argument pops up with near metronomic regularity around here. very handy when your team is in power.

OrionBlastar - Okay then

|2009-05-31 23:06:11

why not rent a room at a local church for the Bible Study that has a "parking lot" for fifteen or more cars? Some churches let you use their rooms for free like for the Cub Scouts and non-profit uses.

I am sure it will be less than the $10,000 fee or whatever the city is trying to charge them. What church would reject a Bible Study class from using one of their rooms?

metallurge

|2009-06-01 00:44:11

Somehow, I think that meeting outside the church's building is intentional on the part of those responsible for the Bible Study. It's not that your solution is inherently wrong. It's that the church should not permit itself to be confined to its building. At some point, it becomes about the principle of the thing.

Oh, and SMC said 15 people, which is not necessarily 15 cars.

laika

|2009-06-01 01:41:02

metallurge wrote:

It's that the church should not permit itself to be confined to its building.

nor should the home Bible Study. or the Boy Scouts. or Oprah's Book Club. especially if it becomes a nuisance.

metallurge wrote:

At some point, it becomes about the principle of the thing.

exactly.

laika

|2009-06-01 00:21:40

OrionBlastar wrote:

yup.

holmegm - re:

|2009-06-01 11:07:39

OrionBlastar wrote:

laika wrote:

yup.

Or perhaps some more convenient location could be found to herd these inconvenient people, so they won't inconvenience any normal folk?

We could call it a "ghetto".

laika

|2009-06-01 20:50:13

holmegm wrote:

We could call it a "ghetto".

or a "church", or a "banquet hall" :-)

or heck, why hide your light under a bushel? maybe they could go to a park?

Entity

|2009-06-01 13:22:50

Snopes has an article on this and apparently it did hinge on what the definition of a 'religious assembly' is. First they said it was a religious assembly and a permit was needed. Then they decided it was not a religious assembly and a permit was not needed. While the issue does revolve around parking, it is troubling that the laws only would have been applied if it were a religious assembly.

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Last Updated on Thursday, 28 May 2009 15:41

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